Senior Dating and Marriage

Transcript of Interview: “Senior Dating and Marriage”

Mike Barnes: I feel like this is a subject we should be talking about around Valentine’s Day or something because love is in the air all the time, including at independent living, assisted living, and even memory care. I’m sure it happens all the time. You know, when our parents get old, if there’s only one of them still around, there’s still love out there, right?

Kim Barnes: Right, 

Mike Barnes: And it’s hard to say no, 

Kim Barnes: And it’s hard to have those discussions sometimes. So we decided to bring in Todd Whatley and Sara Scott. They have a podcast called Answers on Aging. Thanks so much for being with us.

Sara Scott: Hey, thanks for having us. We’re excited.

Kim Barnes: Well, and of course, you have your podcast, but one of the reasons we thought it’d be great to talk to you about this discussion is the fact that Todd, you are an elder law attorney, and Sara, you are a social worker by training and have worked in nursing homes and have potentially some experience in these areas of seeing this. So we thought it’d be great to talk about this. It’s funny that these are the conversations we might have with our teenagers, and yet it’s a little odd when we might be having to have these with our parents.

Todd Whatley: And it’s a very different world out there now than it was back when they were teenagers.

Sara Scott: Yes, it is. The importance of consent is relative, though, if we have aging parents who are either still living in the home or living in a long-term care facility setting. They still need that companionship, and as long as they have the ability to consent, it’s definitely one of the most important things. It’s going to be just a natural desire, no matter what age you are, to have that partner and that companion. The elderly population or our seniors are no exception to that. One thing that we see a lot or seem to be seeing a lot more of is later-in-life marriages, and those are incredibly sticky.

Todd Whatley: Yes, absolutely. There’s a whole lot of things you need to be aware of and concerned about, and it tends to be the kids who are more concerned than the older people typically.

Sara Scott: Yes, it’s been really interesting, and we actually have an episode on the podcast about things to consider before entering into a later-in-life marriage. For some states that have common-law marriage as accepted practice, you need to consider those things too when you’re entering into those later-in-life dating or marriage situations.

Kim Barnes: So in many cases, is doing some sort of a prenup a good step?

Todd Whatley: Oh, yeah, absolutely. I would definitely recommend that, but I would also recommend… So many times the financial situations of each person can really surprise you, particularly when healthcare issues come into play and particularly needing long-term care, which can be very expensive.

Sara Scott: Yes, and not only considering if a prenup is a good idea or not, but also looking at, you know, does your mom receive death benefits after your dad passed away that she stands to lose if she follows her heart and gets married? What does that look like? You’ve got to really think about all the stuff, even though you don’t necessarily want to have that conversation. Todd talks about the benefits of a widow of a veteran and how she couldn’t survive without that income. If it legally is going to financially devastate you to get married, there are some interesting things that you could do in lieu of that.

Kim Barnes: Sure, yeah, because I think these are just… 

Mike Barnes: I think the biggest thing for a child… Like my mom and dad, after 62 years, they’re still married, so we haven’t had to worry about that. But I feel like we almost feel like the bad guy even thinking about it. Like, “Oh my gosh, is he or she trying to scam our parent just by getting married?” Is it bad to feel that way, or is it okay to try and do some research about the person or about the situation just to make sure to protect them?

Todd Whatley: It does seem kind of weird, number one, to talk about finances, but number two, you really have to bring the kids in. I know this is not involving the kids, but it truly is involving the kids because there are going to be some issues. This is a lifetime of savings that you probably wanted to leave to your kids, but once you get married, it really mixes that up with his kids, her kids, or both spouses’ kids. That is a concern, but the thing that I see when I meet with couples before they get married is you’re going to lose some benefits. If she was married to a veteran, there could be some very serious money out there she’s entitled to, but she will lose that once she remarries.

Sara Scott: Another approach to this topic that I find interesting is how traditional and pretty religious those generations seem to be. While they want to spend forever with their newfound love, when they find out that it’s going to be financially devastating for them to do that, getting married just in the church is sometimes a solution. That will follow their church’s rules and be acceptable under God’s eyes but not carry through with the actual filing of the marriage license and doing it on the legal side of things. That seems to work well for some.

Todd Whatley: Definitely, if you’re in a common-law marriage state, that is not going to apply. And I know Texas is one of those states.

Mike Barnes: How do we find out who’s a common-law marriage state and who isn’t?

Todd Whatley: Just do a group search. I highly encourage you that if your aging parent is thinking of getting married and they have funds, it is well worth your time, effort, and money to do an appointment with an elder law attorney who understands Medicaid, VA, estate planning, and who can advise you through this. It is well worth the money that you pay for that.

Kim Barnes: What I’m hearing is that it’s just so important to know what you’re getting into as far as what you’re gaining and what you’re potentially losing by doing this before you take that step. I know it is hard when emotions are involved, for sure.

Sara Scott: Yes, very much so. Always say when emotions run high, intelligence often runs low. You don’t tend to make really great decisions at that point. Being as prepared as possible and asking those difficult questions to your parents ties in well with the name of your group, Parenting Aging Parents. You talked about in the beginning of the interview, you kind of ask questions like you would your teenager when they start dating. Absolutely. You’re still looking out for the safety of your parents, and you do want to ask similar questions like you would about a teenage child starting to date someone because you have their best interest in mind. 

Todd Whatley: The roles flip, and it’s a very awkward conversation, shall we say.

Kim Barnes: Any suggestions on how to make it less awkward, or do you just have to go in and say, “Okay, maybe approach it from, I know this is an awkward conversation, Mom or Dad, but I think it’s something we need to talk about”?

Todd Whatley: Just blame it on the attorney. That’s why make the attorney visit. Just say, “Mom, let’s talk about your estate plan,” but then let the attorney know, “Hey, we’re here pre-marriage. Let’s discuss this.” We’re used to it. It doesn’t bother us. You all will leave the office; we’re going to move on to our next client. We can bring this up, open up everything, and just lay it out there.

Mike Barnes: Todd, you talked about talking to someone like you, an elder law attorney. Is there any reason to get an accountant involved? Any reason to get a social worker involved? Any reason to get your pastor, priest, or someone like that involved? How many people should you get involved in this? Because you’re talking about more than just the prenup and more than just the financial part and more than just the social part of it and the religious part of it. If you can afford it, should you get all those people involved, and should it be individual conversations?

Todd Whatley: If you can get everybody at the same table, that would be fantastic. I don’t think I’ve ever had that happen to get that many professionals free at the same hour. The problem is, many times, the elder law attorney’s version of things will be different than the accountant’s, and that will be different than the financial advisor’s. They’re all thinking different topics. I’m thinking long-term care, losing your money to the nursing home. The accountant is thinking taxes, and the financial advisor is thinking preserve pretty much everything we can. We’re all thinking differently. It is fantastic if you can sit at the same table, but yes, please get those people involved to come up with a game plan.

Sara Scott: I want to recommend one really cool thing. If your loved one is in a nursing home or an assisted living facility and starting a new relationship or considering getting married later in life, request a care plan meeting with the facility. That is probably going to be the one-stop shop to consider if their care is already being paid for through Medicaid, what it would look like to their eligibility status. It also addresses the social aspect of it and the religious aspect of it through the social services department and the activities department. That’s when everybody is on the interdisciplinary team, and they basically have a pow-wow about Mom or Dad’s care. That would be the best-case scenario for you to do and make sure everybody’s on the same page. It would also be a good point to maybe set up some boundaries. You know when I was in the nursing home, we had a few married couples who were still sexually active. Rightfully so, their privacy respected and time to be able to engage, not have somebody knocking on the door trying to deliver medication. We had a system in place that they would hang something out on the door that we knew we’re not going in there. You definitely need to think outside the box sometimes but that has worked in the past in my experience. 

Kim Barnes: I don’t know if you can answer this so you don’t if you can’t but, was there any sort of really odd or crazy situation that you saw during your time that you can share? Absolutely, some of us do not think necessarily. We’re not thinking, you just don’t think of your parents in that way of course. You might not even think because you don’t think of your parents in that way. You might not be thinking of “Oh I guess these are things I should talk to them about.”

Sara Scott: Yeah! We had a female resident who was a widow and there was a gentleman who was a widower that had moved into the facility a few months after she did. They just really hit it off and wanted to move into a room together. They were a couple essentially and both in their right minds just had more physical disabilities. When it came time to talk to the family about this, they straight up and didn’t want to involve the family because it’s their decision. They can make their own decisions but you also have to communicate certain things so it was a really fine line. Finally, we just ended up having to bring all the families together with the residents. They’re comfortable telling you that they want to be together in the same room. We’re not asking your permission, we’re simply informing you, and if they want you to know more information about this, they are going to tell you. Don’t start hounding the staff with questions. I think more of an adjustment for the staff to be honest with you who were familiar with the residents and knew that weren’t married. They would just always ask questions “is that okay, you know and it’s like yes, trust me.” We have all of our bases covered everything is documented and legal we’re fine.

Kim Barnes: Like co-workers who have relationships some of you have to sign paperwork. So a lot of what we’ve discussed today has been about parents who are making decisions, who are able to make good decisions. What about those situations we’ve had one person in our group talk about that her dad started doing online dating and very soon, found that there was a woman that he had communicated with and said “hey, how about if I start taking over your life insurance premiums and you just make me the beneficiary.” Thankfully he had told his daughter, how do you handle those kind of situations that could go bad really fast?

Todd Whatley: The answer there is power of attorney. It is absolutely the most important document that anyone can do but particularly someone who is older, someone who is starting slip mentally or is being taken advantage of. With a very comprehensive elder law power of attorney this daughter could go back to the insurance company or I said daughter but the agent go to the insurance company and changed all of that back. This is going somewhere else, but with a power of attorney you are able to monitor their bank accounts, you can see any checks that are written, any withdrawals. It’s just absolutely crucial that once you start getting older, if you’ve not done a power of attorney, do one. Make sure that someone you know and trust is able to check in on what you’re doing, be able to do things for you and the biggest pushback i get from people is well I don’t want to give up my rides if I do power of attorney, you don’t. You get to still do things. My wife is my power of attorney. I still practice law. I still write checks, and I still do things. She is just there just in case. Sarah’s done the same thing. So, doing a power of attorney, just allows someone to help you. You don’t lose anything but it’s just a very good safeguard.  

Kim Barnes: You’ve got another great example to share as well about the couple though the woman and the nurse.

Mike Barnes: Yeah, there’s someone else in our group who the mom who has a little bit of dementia. She’s an assisted living, and a man has kind of moved in with her. They say they can’t do anything about it. Community says they can’t do anything about it. So the kids are like we don’t know what to do. We try to get mom to leave and she doesn’t want to leave. You know their hands are tied. Dementia add another level. It’s one of those things like what do I do? 

Sara Scott: Dementia definitely adds a whole other level that you need to consider, but the diagnosis alone does not mean that someone is incapacitated or can no longer make decisions. Many of our clients have some form of dementia and are still pretty high functioning and will be for the next couple of years. We certainly want to respect their independence and help them live as independently for as long as possible. To a certain extent unless that guy moved in with mom is making her unsafe or they can prove that it’s a negative thing, here’s not a whole lot that they can do if mom still has the ability to make decisions. Capacity is a huge soapbox of this guy. There is a difference between medical capacity and legal capacity. Not many people realize that. Again, one of the main reasons why having an elder law attorney, a senior care navigator, the community resources that are close to you or on Facebook or wherever you can get them, you’ve got to reach out to those professional services, and really get the best information. Also, help kind of ease your mind a little bit. That’s okay right now, there’s nothing we can do but once mom gets a little bit worse maybe we can step in.

Kim Barnes: I guess if you feel like potentially that person taking advantage of them a little bit from a financial perspective.

Sara Scott: Yes, when things like that are going on, it’s not difficult to prove. It takes some work and I would definitely recommend to the family getting ducks in a row. As soon as they start to really suspect something, take pictures, keep a journal, go ahead and call the police then make a report. It doesn’t mean it’s legit or it’s actually happening but at least there’s a record that will backup your story, if unfortunately, you have to use it in the future.

Kim Barnes: I guess also partnering or at least making the community aware of your concerns as well and I know you said that there’s a very fine line between what they actually do or talk to you about. Just making sure that they’re another set of eyes.  

Sara Scott: Yes, absolutely, their eyes are going to see things differently than yours. They’re going to hopefully be a little more objective and less emotionally driven. Definitely having another set of eyes from a professional is the way to go. 

Mike Barnes: Get some help and be prepared since you never know what’s coming.

Sara Scott: That’s right. Getting old is not for sissies.

Mike Barnes: Well said. Todd and Sarah thank you so much. Great talking to you. I think we learned a lot there. If we’re prepared… Not that we want anything like that to happen because we want the love to be there, right? It’s just the world we live in, and you have to be prepared for the worst. 

Kim Barnes: It’s hard to think about the fact that people might be trying to take advantage of our parents. We want to protect them, but it could be love. It could be real. We want to make them as happy as possible.

Mike Barnes: Remember, we love to hear from you. If you have any topics you’d like for us to discuss here on Parenting Aging Parents, just let us know.

*This transcript is auto-generated. Please excuse any typos or mistakes.